User talk:Black Shroud

Greetings
Hello Black Shroud and welcome to SNK Wikia. Indeed, there are lots of mistakes in the translations from japanese to english, and I do think that the translators are japanese. I'm brazilian and I find those mistakes really laughable; that's something that contributes to the series not being completely accepted in the west. Maybe, with SNK Wikia, we can change that. I don't know anything about japanese (it's really hard to find a japanese course around here) and I hope with your skills we can improve this wikia.

Recently, I created the articles about the Edge of Destiny exclusive characters. I used the official site in english of the game and had a really hard time trying to understand some profiles. I think it's really lame that I have to copy texts from wikipedia, but there aren't many sources in english or in portuguese about the Samurai Shodown series.

I'm really happy that you have joined us and I agree with you about writing the correct translation. SNK created a whole mythology, not only in the Samurai Shodown series, but also in all of its games. Again, I'm really excited about having you with us and, please, give us your best. -- Mr.Kraken 15:40, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If Mr. Admin says so, then I'll help out too. There's a lot more info for the Samurai Shodown and Art of Fighting characters that we can put into the articles. Let's make this work out! Sake neko 16:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

My points
For you to know, I saved pretty regularly all wikipedia, answers.com and similar pages about Samurai Shodown (especially characters) BEFORE their deletion or any possible vandalism. And since you already use wikipedia's info as base, I suggest for starters I will fill info from those pages I have (if it is missing) into SNK wikia. If someone needs help with japanese I can recommend some online tools for making translations easier, but what I have most problems with are the cases when SNK decides to publish text in images or flash, so I cant operate with it and so I need native japanese speakers help then (and that is the case of SSVI and Sen/Edge of Destiny, latter at least has english versions of biographies). As for source of Samurai Shodown information, the best source that I and my contacts know so far is: Me. I even digged some ainu and nauhatl dictionaries to translate Nakoruru and Tam Tam movenames (yes its kinda unique but I have Tam Tam's movenames translated as well as Nakoruru Rimururu Rera ones, even though SNK didnt bothered. Same goes for Mina who has a deal of untranslated words in her movenames). To Mr. Kraken: We have six brazilian players in Samurai Shodown players database so far: Darkangel, fabiotwotwo, mata_patos, Saint George, snakesanders, SPLAY Maybe you know someone of them, Im just curious. If I see new player I add him to database; we use [2dfighter] client nowadays to play Samurai Shodown games online, just in case for you to know.

Then back to topic, what we have here to discuss:

Character Profile Structure
Current sections of character profile:
 * (quick summary and first appearance)
 * (character portrait and stats table)
 * Story
 * Personality
 * Powers
 * Fighting Style
 * Music
 * Game Appearances
 * Sprites
 * Gallery

Estimated sections of character profile
 * (an correct name kanji translation)
 * (quick summary and first appearance)
 * (character portrait and stats table)
 * Story
 * Personality
 * Powers
 * Fighting Style - in this section gameplay traits of character must be listed and I saw some misplaced info in those sections
 * Miscellaneous Facts Notes (info that doesnt fits in quick summary section)
 * Cultural References and Legacy (Historical, Religious, Cultural references of character go there. Like Gaoh's design is based on Oda Nobunaga and who is Oda Nobunaga)
 * Modern References and Derivations (Like Haohmaru's desing is partially based on Hyakkimaru from manga (also movie and game) Dororo)
 * Music Themes
 * Game Appearances
 * Sprites
 * Gallery


 * If we use the "Cultural References and Legacy" section, we shall use it only in the Samurai Shodown, Last Blade and Ninja Master's articles. But if we are to approve it, create an article with that template and we'll see about it. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

List of References in Samurai Shodown
Then we will need another page that will be called List of References in Samurai Shodown, and there in alphabet order I think we will place every such subject. For that example with Gaoh, his Cultural References and Legacy section on his character page will have just short note like "Nobunaga was one of Three Unifiers of Japan etc etc..." AND it will also link to appropriate place in List of References in Samurai Shodown page, which will have more detailed Nobunaga section then. Believe me there is alot of such info so such page is needed.


 * That can be created, yes. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Characters stat tables
-SS:Shinsho/New Chapter/Warriors Rage PSX has another standart of short character stats like weight, height, from where, what likes etc.. To that end Old Haohmaru and Hanzo the Second will need separate stat tables so Haohmaru's and Hanzo's profile will have 2 such tables each. If we will insert Asura, Hanmen no Asura and Yuda in one character profile as previously wikipedia did (although Hanmen no Asura is completely separate character), it will mean 3 such tables in that profile.


 * Asura, Hanmen no Asura (Shadow Asura, right?) and Yuda will be featured in different articles. But if that's what you wanna do, we gotta create different profile templates for every game series and there are a lot of crossovers in the SNK world. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Characters portraits
-I recommend to have somewhat like character portrait tab in the very start of character profile; in my guide I use the same type SNK uses on Samurai Shodown Anniversary Site in character profiles (big main portrait).


 * Well, ok. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Characters Storyline section structure
-For storyline of character here is what I do: (I also divide storyline by story arc, each named after main villain, like SS1-SS4 is Ambrosia Story Arc, SS64-SS:Shinsho (Warriors Rage PSX) is Yuga Story Arc, SSV-SSVI is Kuraki-Sumeragi (Dark Emperor) story arc, and newest game is Golba Story Arc I guess.
 * At first some quick summary
 * Title 'storyline of character xxx in game xxx (1st game he appeared in) that takes place in year xxx month xxx (small like 75x75 character portrait from that game)
 * Then his official biography of 1st game he appeared
 * Possible notes/quicker summary for that biography
 * His official ending for that game
 * Possible notes/quicker summary for that ending
 * same for next game he appeared in

By using this method I can list storyline by how it appeared in games and I am able to show retcons, however because user can look on dates the games take place in (like SS3 and SS4 are after SS1 but before SS2, and SSV is before SS1), he can built up the canonical flow of things in his head. Example:
 * Zankuro kills Basara and Kagaribi in SS3 so Basara hunts him
 * retcon in SSV, Basara is shown as actual killer of Kagaribi
 * SSV happens before SS3 storyline-wise
 * Using my way we are able to mention initial storyline then retconned storyline and it will all make sense.


 * I believe that new fans would be confused. I would prefer to write only the canon story of the character and put what was retconned in a "Trivia" section. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Romanji error ?
I see often an error when there is English Term (Kanji, english term) instead of English Term (Kanji, romanji)


 * That happens when we don't know the correct romanji term. You can correct those errors. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Energy in weapons discussion
_In “Powers” sections on character pages there is listed ability like “Put energy in weapon” or “infusing weapon with ki” – if it is reference to glowing “energy” traces after slashes then all characters can do it and no need to make it like special ability. If not then for each character it needs more detailed explanation.


 * The Samurai Shodown and Last Blade characters all have that glowing energy traces after slashes, but those Energy Attacks we are refering to are those different traces. For instance, in Samurai Shodown all characters leave yellow traces when attacking, but there are some different traces like in Haohmaru's Kogetsuzan and in Nakoruru's Kamui Rimse. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Slash and Bust
_In US versions of SS4, SS64, SS64:2 games, Slash / Bust character modes are basically illiteral substitutions for Shura and Rasetsu, a demons/deities from japanese buddhism, in original versions of games they were used as symbols of sorts, if you want I can explain more on this, but it deals with when character is in his normal state and when he isnt. And as for Slash and Bust names I saw stuff on forums like “Its called Slash because in that mode you can slash” or “Bust Rimururu is busty!!”, it was pretty crappy to say at least. I propose to make a note in SS3 section where it is said about introduction of selecting character mode system, we will revert it to Shura and Rasetsu ("Rasetsumaru is based on Rasetsu Haohmaru" is far more convinceable than "Rasetsumaru is based on Bust Haohmaru", dont you think ?), and we will make a note like: "Shura and Rasetsu were misinterpretated due to spelling error (Shura sounded similar to Shurash, and thats how Slash sounds on japanese, and same deal with Rasetsu / Basetsu / Bust), and so because SNK translators failed to translate it correctly, they just substituted those terms with words Slash and Bust in US and Europe releases of Samurai Shodown games"


 * You can put that in the SS3 article, but don't change the character articles. If we say that Shadow Asura is actually Rasetsu Asura, fans familiar with the Slash and Bust terms won't understand. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Some japanese demonology mistransations
_To translate Oni as demon is big error as there is tendency to translate every japanese mystical creature or youkai as “Demon” so when you see several creatures translated it will be just “demon, demon, demon...” as in US versions of Onimusha. It is just very wrong and original sense becomes lost. And Oni is a specific term when talking about warriors or swordsmanship, Oni symbolizes basically a very strong warrior (swordsman) dedicated to his art wholeheartedly, and therefore displaying impressive results on battlefield, however it can be also the one sacrificing everything to his path of sword / path of killing. Particularly term Oni is used everytime for Genjuro and Zankuro.


 * Yeah, I studied japanese bestiaries for some time and I know that "Oni" and "Youkai" don't mean "Demon". If you see the word "demon" around here, feel free to erase it. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

A shady mistranslation
_Shadow Asura is wrong translation, original name is Hanmen no Asura and it is Another Asura (because he is clone of Asura). Needless to say he doesnt deals with shadows storyline-wise, he isnt some shadow-user character like Basara.


 * I think SNK ment to give the impression that Hanmen no Asura is somewhat of a shadow of the Asura most are familiar with, not that his an "Asura of Shadows". -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

About warriors and their rage
_Naming two games Warriors Rage is not only for confusion, it is also wrong because Samurai Spirits Asura Zanmaden means like “Asura: Slashing Demon Tale” or “Asura: Demonic Swordsman Tale”, and Samurai Spirits Shinsho is “Samurai Spirits New Chapter”, so no one of those titles can be translated as Warriors Rage. It makes me wonder why SNK never bothered to translate Ikari kanji on Rage gauge of characters to RAGE, but they only wrote POW instead. And it is right to say RAGEd character then POWed character. Black Shroud 18:42, 8 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, there are these two articles: Samurai Shodown 64: Warriors Rage and Samurai Shodown: Warriors Rage; there some notes in both articles, but if you want, you can add something more specific. It's confusing, yes, but like it or not we gotta face it this way: the damage is done. It would be even more confusing for new fans to call those games by their japanese names. This wikia's goal is to expand the world of SNK in the west, please remember that. -- Mr.Kraken 17:38, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * PS: And please, when you create an article categorize it.

I think
The story format is a little over excessive. Doing the story format like this is like naming what Ryo Sakazaki or Terry Bogard did in every game; their articles are separated by series, yes, but it basically keeps the highlights and what people need to know. It also wouldn't be fair to other series' characters (since I'm guessing you only want to do this with Samurai Shodown characters). This almost sounds like you're being anti-Yuki Enterprise and pro-Galapagos Team. I like the old games a lot but the newer games exist too (for better or worse). It was also confusing for me to read Rimururu's article (and I even know her story) because of the year differences; it hiccups the reading continuity in the article. It's like reading a Quentin Tarantino film without the punchline.

However, there are some things that I do like and that is mentioning the recons! There are a lot of them (like Genjuro mysteriously staying under 30 until Sen popped up). I say we should just make a new section entitled "Retcons/Contridictions" or what have you. Then we can list what differences occurred with each specific game. Even the minor really daft details like some of their ages being pushed back in their bios and change in voice actors.

About the Japanese to romanization iterations, yes, some of them do use the English translations and they aren't right by a long-shot. So feel free to fix the ones in the infoboxes if you know them. As far as game terms go (like Ikari/POW, correct names for game titles, ect.), I'm iffy on those. Just because other people aren't as familiar with any of the English or Japanese names. The common gamer that I've talked to is basically "Samurai Shodown V? You mean they actually got past III?" We might also get this stupid BS eventually: "This is English so speak it". However, if we can make it work, then why not?

Other problems you mentioned were kinda minor and can be fixed with a simple re-wording. Like "Rasetsumaru is based on Bust Haohmaru (known as Rastesu Haohmaru in Japan)" or "Hamen no Asura, which translates to "The other Asura", is a clone of Asura. He is known as "Shadow Asura" in English." I've personally seen those dumb Slash/Bust jokes on the forums only made as light-hearted jokes to the Engrish translations; I've never seen them made out of pure ignorance. Then again it's been a good ten or so years since I last looked at them so I guess the times have changed.

I only really see the need to split off articles for Shinzo, the Ashuras, and Yuda. Older Haohmaru is still Haohmaru to me really. I'd just add his info from his older, grayer counterpart in his current one with parenthesis explaining when this occurs. Example = Likes: Duels; Sake (WR2). Mr. Karate II got another article because he's another shade to Ryo's character, where he's not quite canon in other series but he exists in others.

I don't really understand the powers section either. I just put stuff that I know that exist in there. You're going to have to talk about Mr. Admin about that. Sake neko 16:00, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Black Shroud responds
They have Samurai Spirits "Title Of Current Game" in their name, but for US releases they add numbers and it goes like V I III IV II with VI out of the line :/. Thats why the need arises to use correct original game titles (or at least their translations as in my case). There are Retcons, Backtracking, and Controversies. Examples:
 * Well I will think how to shorten the story format
 * As for Yuki and Galapagos I think each has its strong and weak sides, for example removal of all non-Galapagos characters in Sen/Edge of Destiny isnt very welcomed by me as well but hey, maybe we will see some of them in next releases.
 * As for "other games" I dont think they have regularly released games with such a misplaced timeline.
 * I must note that it is largely a problem of non-japanese releases, because Japanese Versions Dont Use Numbers.
 * As for retcons I thought to make a "Note: There is this and this retcon" in the text itself, or after storyline section of character in that game. However I can add Retcons sections right after Storyline section, I need to think what will look better.
 * Rimururu being not tied by blood to Nakoruru, Basara being killer of Kagaribi are Retcons
 * Explaining Rasetsu/Bust forms of Sogetsu and Kazuki as being alway partially posessed by Enja and Suija, who were introduced actually later, is a Backtracking
 * Is Shizumaru Zankuro's son or isnt, what about Hanzo's father being Jigen in Warriors Rage (PSX) if Hanzo there is actually Shinzo - those are Controversies.
 * About Slash and Bust; I solved it: I will always use them as "Shura/Slash" mode and "Rasetsu/Bust" mode everywhere, and I will make notes in game sections.

Anyway I would like to hear an opinion of Mr.Kraken too, so I will wait Remember: Initial sense + recognizability = Win ;) Black Shroud 16:25, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thank the Gods. I thought you were one of those people who were "Retro is better!" for a second. That's good. I wouldn't say "controversies" per say. I think "retcons" is fine; that's all they did really when you think about it. I'll help out with those "Shura/Slash" and "Rasetsu/Bust" too. Hope Kraken can help out with his input too. :) Sake neko 16:34, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I will help out with the "Shura/Slash" / "Rasetsu/Bust" too. Tell me, Black Shroud and Sake neko, do you have official info of all of the characters Rasetsu/Bust stories? If you do, we could add sub-sections about them. -- Mr.Kraken 17:49, 9 July 2008 (UTC)